Here’s a little behind the scenes peak at what goes into making one of these interviews:
GEPP: CB said to email you about the Macho Man thing for your revolving door interview type thingy.
KON: I’m in the middle of a Wild Pegasus one with Blair right now, but i’d be happy to do it any time after…
OOOH YEAH!
KON: What’s your first memory of The Macho Man?
GEPP: I first remember watching one of the WWF shows and this guy came out. He was fast in the ring, but we didn’t know if he was a heel or a face. He was just dazzling. We guessed he was a heel because all the heel managers were courting him. And then he had this big conference with them in the ring. He praised them, and then told the world that his manager would be…
And out walked Miss Elizabeth. Wow. The managers looked stunned. Heenan looked like he was about to cry. She didn’t say anything, but he took her by the hand and walked off with her. Whoever was on copmmentary was having a fit, not believing it was happening. Such an awesome way to introduce her, and it makes me nostalgic for managers in today’s wrestling climate.
I wish we got territory wrestling in Australia, though, because I’ve seen some of his earlier stuff on YouTube and it seems like the guy was a star right off the bat.
KON: You watched his début? Damn. Talk me through those early years.
GEPP: When he started, he really did play the cowardly heel bit. He ran out of the ring a lot, and drew his opponents after him, and then attacked when they came back in, things like that. He got a lot of heat in those early days by simply walking away a lot.
But then he won the intercontinental title from Tito Santana, and we had a new reason to hate him. And we did. Using that foreign object to knock Santana out when he could have won by wrestling was just such a dick move that everyone wanted to see him get his come-uppance. This led to the feud with George “The Animal” Steele, and the first time Miss Elizabeth got involved in a story. Of course, Steele never won the title, but then Savage did something that made us hate him all the more. I have friends and relatives who screamed at the TV when we watched him ram that ring bell into Ricky Steamboat’s throat. And then came Wrestlemania 3. George Steele came out with Steamboat in a nice piece of continuity, and they then proceeded to put on a wrestling clinic.
I know Steamboat thinks it was not as good as his Flair matches because it was so rehearsed, but to me it is one of the best 3 Wrestlemania matches ever.
This led to something odd, though. Because of his skill, Savage was starting to be treated less like a heel by the fans. And this led to Wrestlemania 4 and his first WWF title in that rather long and surprisingly dull tournament, where he was cheered and supported by the crowd. Of course, his win was overshadowed by Hulk Hogan’s antics and Hogan was there to absorb some of the cheers (see also his 1996 Nitro WCW title win for something similar). This led to their show-down at Wrestlemania 5, as Wrestlemania 4 was also the start of what I called Savage’s Star Wars story-line that lasted from WM 4 till WM 7. (It’s in one of my old columns somewhere.)
What about yourself? What are your early memories of Savage?
KON: I want to say the wedding, but I might have caught that on VHS.
I definitely remember Flair v Savage at Wrestlemania VIII. I re-watched it last year and everything was great. The promos were fantastic, the match was amazing and the interviews after it ended… Savage was still selling the Figure Four in the post-match interview (at least fifteen mins after the bell had rung).
GEPP: Savage v Flair was awesome. Mind you, my favourite ever Wrestlemania match (not necessarily the best, but my favourite) was from WM7 – Savage v Warrior. Everything about that match from the story-telling to the interference to the feel-good ending after Savage had lost – it was wonderful. I recently introduced my young son to it, and he was lost in it as well.
It seemed, though, that after WM8 Savage became the selling guy. Between him and Curt Hennig, it was who could take the most punishment in a match and still win. Look at that Survivor Series match when Savage and Hennig faced Flair and Razor Ramon. Savage was slaughtered. Hennig went to walk away, and then it wa sa big clusterf**k ending, but still a great match.
And then there was the Royal Rumble where Savage went to pin Yokozuna, and was tossed off over the top rope. That made Savage look like something of an idiot (mind you, in 1992 he jumped over the top rope to tackle Jake Roberts, and they let him back in because he hadn’t been thrown over, even though Bossman eliminated himself earlier).
What are some of your other memories of Savage in the WWF?
KON: Savage really was the complete package during his WWF run. The voice, the outfits, the valet, the wrestling ability… You’d be hard pressed to find someone who didn’t enjoy watching him.
I have fond memories of the commentary run towards the end of his time with WWF as well. My dad used to do impersonations of Savage that were spot on (well, at least to a five-year-old me), I kinda inherited that from him. I do a mean Hogan as well (as at least four of our readers will attest to).
GEPP: My son’s started doing “Ooooh Yeeeah!” a bit. As a commentator I think he was underrated, although even he seemed bored by WM 9.
And then WM10 came and his feud with Crush, and he went off to the greener pastures of WCW, following Hulk Hogan. I remember Hogan’s debut in WCW. He came down in a motorcade with confetti and everything, and Kevin Sullivan cut a bizarre and vaguely threatening promo where he kept calling the guy ‘Terry’. And then Savage came in, and he was treated like Hogan’s pet boy. Mind you, it gave us some good Flair-Savage matches (involving Angelo Poffo at one stage and Flair in drag at another), and then that horrendous Doomsday Cage match at Uncensored 1996, where Savage and Hogan defeated 8 men in a triple decker cage which they kept on leaving. And who got pinned? Ric Flair. At least Hogan let Savage do it.
Of course, in January of 96 at a Nitro Savage pinned Flair for the title, then got pinned at the next night’s Clash in a tag match. Savage was just thrown around by stupid storylines at this point in time. I think my favourite Savage match from his early WCW run was he and Sting v John Tenta (he might have been the Shark at that point) and Ray Traylor (who was either a Boss [man, is he big!] or a Big Bubba Rogers at that point). Just stupid and over the top, but kinda fun. But, really, Savage was messed around in WCW. I actually thought something cool was going to happen when he joined Sting (when Sting was in full Crow mode) watching NWO v WCW, until Savage went off and joined the NWO and, then left.
That initial WCW run was a waste of opportunities, even if some good matches and a few title reigns came out of it.
Did you ever catch Savage in that first WCW run?
KON: I remember Savage and Luger kinda feuding. Mega Powers 2.0 was going on due to the whole “alliance to end hulkamanaia” thing and Savage didn’t like Luger for some reason. Sting and Luger were tight, so Savage would roar at Sting one week, telling him to chose between Luger and team Hogan and the next NITRO would have all four of them dressed in red and yellow. Savage would get pissed off again, luger would accidentally hit him… I’m sure this was pre-Outsiders as well. I guess the Macho Man character could predict the future or something.
I remember Flair stealing Elizabeth and Woman, which was repeated about a year later when the nWo “kidnapped” Elizabeth and took her to the set of whatever terrible moving Hogan was filming at the time.
The whole nWo thing was weird. Even re-watching, I’m not sure if Liz was supposed to be in on the plan to lure Savage in, if she didn’t give a shit or whatever. They had divorced by that point in real life and Randy kinda blamed Hogan for it, so maybe it was one of those “art imitates life” moments (also known as “lazy booking”).
GEPP: That always confused me as well. Almost as much as the infamous reviving elbow at Clash 30 in ’95 (the elbow that killed everyone else woke Hogan up in their tag match… seriously). Savage left and, like half of WCW at that time, the storylines he was involved with were just ignored, especially with the NWO dominating everything.
But then Savage came back in, what, 1998 or so? And he had the new Gorgeous George with him (she was a bit of a cutie), as well as Miss Madness and Madusa. And Savage was jacked. He couldn’t even get his arms by his sides. But he came back during a time of hyperactively insane booking. So his first PPV appearance was when he was the special guest referee in the 4-corners match between Hogan, Sting, Flair and DDP. And then, after Hogan went out with a “knee injury”, Flair had Sting in a figure 4, and Sting got to the ropes. Savage kicked Sting’s hands off the ropes, dragged Flair back into the middle of the ring, then hit an elbow on Flair, enabling DDP to get the pin and his first world title. (Guilty pleasure admission: I liked this match.)
Other matches he was involved with in this second WCW run were the match with Rodman at Road Wild where he trapped Rodman in a port-a-loo and pushed it over, and the match between Little Naitch (referee Charles Robinson) vs Gorgeous George (another guilty pleasure match, and probably the match of the night at Slamboree 99; mind you, at a Nitro not long after Savage hit Robinson with an elbow that injured Robinson quite badly), and the tag match where whoever pinned Nash (if anyone pinned Nash) was the champ, including his own partner, infamous more for Gorgeous George’s prominent black eye than the abomination that occurred in the ring. And then – again – it was over, Savage left, and apart from a few odd appearances in TNA, we only saw Savage in the movies.
Do you remember anything about his last WCW run?
KON: Haha, I remember watching the “reviving elbow” show in the Fistpump Screening Room a few months ago.
I was way into WCW during his return, ’97 was a great year for the company. I don’t want to jump ahead, but the Luger thing repeated it’s self around the time Hogan v Sting happened. Cut to a few months later and the two of them were in the Wolfpac together…
Anyway, Page v Savage was great. I’m sure everyone has already said that those matches made DDP, even Page himself, but it wouldn’t be right if I neglected to mention it.
I remember the battle for NWO leadership between Savage and Hogan that never really amounted to anything. It seems like any time Hogan’s name appears in this, things go un-resolved.
Team Madness was iffy. He obviously wasn’t going to be having the best matches of his career by then, but, yeah, a tag match with the big gold belt on the line? not the worst stipulation a WCW match had that year, but still…
Why did Savage always have a woman (or three) by his side? Was that part of the “macho” thing?
GEPP: I reckon it was. I also think that since Miss Elizabeth he had this mystique thing about women, and felt he had to carry it on. But in TNA and his later short-lived rap career, that seemed to be let go. Maybe it was part of the powers-that-be definition of Savage that gave him those women? He seemed always to be willing to do whatever was asked of him, so maybe it was just something else foisted onto him.
Back to Savage and Page, I think the reason Savage and Page clicked so well was the fact both of them were notorious for carefully scripting and rehearsing their matches. When two of them get together, it generally works well because they are both on the same page. Mind you, I’d also say Page getting the run against Benoit and Raven helped his career.
The Luger stuff felt like filler for both men, giving them both a high profile feud that meant very little in the long run, but kept them both visible and on top. Sure, it resulted in some good matches, but it really meant not a lot.
KON: He left WCW (a smart idea at the time), probably sat at home for 8 months while still getting paid, then appeared as Bonesaw McGraw in the Spiderman movie. Did you see it?
GEPP: This is a rather embarrassing admission, but I wasn’t going to see it as I’d found a lot of superhero films up to that time were not good. But when I heard Savage was in it, I bit the bullet and went, and actually really enjoyed it.
Even worse, I own only four rap albums – Grand Master Flash & The Furious Five, Beastie Boys’ Licensed to Ill, Luke’s Banned In The USA, and Savage’s Be A Man. (My musical tastes are classic rock, 80s pop and 50s/60s everything). I actually liked ‘Perfect Friend’ from Savage’s album. Sad, I know…
KON: I probably own about 100 rap albums, but I can’t say Be A Man is one of them. I like the stuff I’ve heard via youtube, but I’m not sure it’s something I’d blast at full volume. I can’t shit on your musical tastes though, I’ve been in a sort of New Wave rut for the last seven years.
The TNA run, is it worth mentioning?
From what I managed to find on youtube, Savage came down at the end of what should’ve been a 3 vs 3 match and The Kings of Wrestling (Jarrett, Kevin Nash, and Scott Hall)(also known as nWo version MMIV) shat themselves as the show faded to black.
GEPP: I think I read somewhere that Savage left because he heard Hogan was going to get involved in the whole thing, and he just didn’t want to be part of what he thought was going to be WCW v2.0.
Having said that, his brother Lanny said after his marriage to Lynn (about a year before he died), he had made peace with Hogan and McMahon, so maybe he mellowed in his old age.
KON: Randy and Vince certainly made up, The Macho Man did a few adverts for (and appeared in) the WWE All-Stars videogame and was a downloadable character for WWE ’12.
Some people say they fell out because Randy took the Slim-Jim deal with him when he left for WCW, others say Randy fucked Stephanie. Whatever happened, it was great to see him in those advertisements. He looked older because he’d stopped dying his hair, but it was still the same Macho Man we’d came to love over the years.
GEPP: You know, I never even heard the Stephanie rumours until I started reading another website in the early 2000s. The Slim Jim one was one I’d heard before, as well as him leaving right before a huge programme was about to start, and also holding Vince up for more money.
Which I guess leads us to the question of the WWE Hall of Fame. I recently watched a video where Lanny Poffo denied Savage refused entry to the HoF unless Lanny and Angelo were also inducted. I’d never even heard that, but I was sort of thinking Macho would be a post-humous induction in 2012. What do you think of his HoF chances?
KON: I’ve heard that he wouldn’t do it unless Angelo was inducted. I guess it’s up to the Randy Savage estate now.
It would be nice for WWE to induct him, but lets be honest here, the HOF is actually a short-term no-compete contract, a small payout and a cheap-as-fuck picture frame.
I’d really like to see things like a Mega Powers DVD set, a WWE doc on The Macho Man with his top ten matches on the bonus disks, things like that.
GEPP: Speaking of top Macho Man matches – what are yours?
KON: Steamboat at WrestleMania III
Flair at WrestleMania VIII
WCW vs The Outsiders at Bash At The Beach ’96
Anything from the DDP series
You?
GEPP: Steamboat at WM 3
Warrior at WM 7, and again at Summerslam
Hogan at WM 5
Any match against Flair or DDP
Arn Anderson (first Nitro of 1996)
Look, there’s so many. He really is/was one of my favourite wrestlers.
KON: This feels like a natural point to end on.
GEPP: Thanks for doing this. I was fun to reminisce.
KON: Thanks for taking part.
Previously:
****** – With Blair A. Douglas and KON
Rest in Peace – With Gojira and KON
Pulse has been doing anniversary articles recently and Sunday marked five years since the murder-suicide thing. Blair A. Douglas (BAD) joined me to talk about the man’s life…
KON: What was your first memory of Chris Benoit?
BAD: We didn’t get ECW up in Canada until 1999, or WCW until 1996, so WCW in early 1996 was the first I saw of Chris Benoit. Keep in mind, WCW at that point was filled with a lot of ex-WWE guys, and right at the start of the nWo angle. Chris Benoit was with The Horsemen at the time, who were only intermittently involved with that angle. And, it took a while to get fully immersed into WCW, as they had a huge roster at the time. Around that same time however, one of the “B” storylines on Nitro was the Horsemen and the Dungeon of Doom feud, which was centered around Chris Benoit and Kevin Sullivan. I had seen some of Benoit in a Cruiserweight capacity and thought he was quite good, but this very intense feud was the first time I saw Benoit in any kind of program which showed any of his depth. I was probably as impressed with Benoit around this time as I was with anyone in WCW or WWE.
KON: I liked the incarnation of The Horsemen with Pillman and Benoit, but the Alliance To End Hulkamania as a whole was quite shite.
I couldn’t stand Kevin Sullivan. He seems like a nice guy in his shoot interviews and whatnot, but back in ’95 he was a dwarf with yellow Hogan style speedos and the worse face-paint in the business. They did a thing where The Horsemen stole Woman (who I’m sure we’ll get to later) and Elizabeth from Savage (who was in the middle of a Mega Powers reunion at the time), you could see that Liz was six or seven inches taller than The Taskmaster.
BAD: In truth, I don’t know that much about Sullivan. He did okay in those brawls with a guy like Benoit, though. The Alliance To End Hulkamania was indeed terrible. I never saw it back then, but I’ve seen clips of it since and it looks dreadful.
From there, Benoit went back to more Horseman-related business. He teamed with Mongo against a tweener-Jeff Jarrett and Dean Malenko, and the interesting thing about this to me was that Benoit played a heel at the time, yet was clearly the same wrestler and character he had been when fighting Sullivan. This was the type of thing that WCW did quite well – in my opinion, WWE has struggled with this concept, at that time anyway, of having characters that were less black-and-white babyface and heel. After that, the Horsemen became more active against the nWo – this led to fights where he teamed with Flair and Mongo against bigger names that WCW had at the time like Kevin Nash. Benoit was obviously the youngest guy in there, and I thought he showed great fire, speed and ability.
KON: Benoit beat Sullivan in a retirement match during Bash at the Beach ’97, which was kinda nice of Kevin, given that Chris had taken his wife (which happened during a storyline were, uh, Benoit and Woman had an affair). Sullivan moved on to booking and Benoit moved on to the role of WCW Television Champion…
1998 was a strange year for WCW, but the under-card remained solid. Booker and Benoit faced off a bunch of times, then Bret Hart tried to convince the crippler to join nWo version 28342. Both Booker and Benoit came out looking quite good.
BAD: Whatever you thought of Sullivan, you have to give it to him for being willing to go down to Benoit after what happened, AND for giving up his career to a relatively young and somewhat unproven guy. As for 1998, that was when I think WCW started it’s slower decline. It wasn’t all negatives though – in addition to that GREAT series with Booker (which still holds up today, and which I would still buy a DVD box-set of), Benoit also had some great matches with DDP and Raven. I’m not a huge fan of DDP, but his matches with Savage and Benoit I think are his best work. The Raven stuff impressed me because Raven isn’t someone who wrestles Benoit’s style. I can’t say I remember Bret trying to convince Benoit to join nWo, but I do believe it was 1999 when Bret and Benoit had a couple of really great matches…
KON: Benoit teamed with Malenko to lift the WCW Tag-Team titles in early ’99. After a short-lived Horsemen reunion, Chris lifted the WCW United States Heavyweight Championship and formed The Revolution with Saturn, Shane Douglas and Malenko. It was supposed to be a bunch of guys who were angry about being held down, but Russo was on a massive South Park fix at the time and decided to turn it into an Anti-America thing. Benoit left them towards the end of the year and had an Owen Hart tribute match with Bret sometime in October.
In Sullivan’s Timeline DVD from Kayfabe Commentaries, he talks about being given a very short period of time to book a long period of time. Goldberg was out with glass window related injuries, so they decided to give the belt to Chris in order to lighten the mood backstage and re-package Sid as a more serious character (the idea being to have Goldberg beat Vicious upon his return). Benoit still wasn’t happy, so he, along with Guerrero, Malenko and Perry Saturn, walked to New York. Douglas was going to be part of the deal (he hated WCW management for not giving him a title the day he signed), but WWF didn’t really want nor know what to do with him.
It was a big loss to WCW. Sullivan talks about this on his Timeline DVD too. Those four were putting on solid matches every time they walked out, regardless of their slot on the card. WCW had lost Jericho about six months before, so they really needed those four to make other, newer guys look good. Without them, well, Jim Duggan ended up being TV Champion after finding the belt in a trash can.
BAD: I was initially very into the idea of the Revolution, and was a big fan of Benoit and Saturn in particular. It was clear by 1999 that WCW had to figure out what their next “big deal” was going to be, and I thought the Revolution could be it. Obviously, that wasn’t the case. The Owen Hart tribute match was indeed fantastic, but WCW’s problems became a lot more apparent on-screen by the time Benoit had left. I believe they had just re-formed nWo once again with Bret as the leader, but then Bret got hurt, and Hall and Steiner got suspended. I believe Benoit was thrown into the main-event against Sid AFTER all of that happened in the first place, so Benoit may have made his mind up before they actually decided to put the belt on him. From what I heard, he offered to lose it before-hand, but WCW told him “thanks but no thanks” so he just went to WWE with the others you mentioned. The revolving door that WCW was became a lot more apparent after this happened – as you said, they had lost Jericho not long before that, and Big Show not long before THAT.
Is that really what happened with Douglas? I hadn’t heard that story. Shane is a weird dude. Anyway, WCW clearly didn’t know what to do with Benoit and his friends, and WWE was incredibly smart to pick them all up. I was really stoked to see that happen – I also thought their initial entrance into the company and heel turn was very well done. They just showed up on RAW in the front row, and beat up DX, who were heels at the time. They aligned themselves with Mick Foley, who was Triple H’s biggest challenger at that point. They competed in singles matches to get regular contracts, but couldn’t get the job done. Eventually, they turned on Foley when Triple H was the one who offered them regular contracts.
KON: Of the four, Benoit seemed to get the biggest push out of the gate. As much as WWF thought they wanted Malenko and Saturn, it’s kinda clear that they had no idea what to do with them. Eddie won a title shortly after joining, but he was stuck buggering about with Chyna for most of the year. Wrestlemania 2000 was the night of Benoit’s first WWF title win, defeating Angle and Jericho to become the Intercontinental Champion. By the time summer rolled around, he was getting screwed out of the WWF Championship in several main events.
BAD: Actually, he cheated in those main events and Foley reversed the decision – you’re right about Malenko and Saturn too, although I think there was more they could have done with Saturn. Benoit winning that great Triple-Threat at WrestleMania against Angle and Jericho surprised me, as I was sure that was going to be Jericho’s win. Speaking of that, Jericho and Benoit also had a very long feud around this time, with several different types of PPV matches which stole the show. I remember a couple of the ladder matches in particular being quite good. This was my favourite part of Benoit’s WWE run.
KON: He faced Kurt Angle again at Mania XVII in 2001, won the WWF World Tag-Team championship with Jericho and fucked his back up just in time to miss the invasion storyline.
He returned in 2002 to win both the IC title and the post-Brand Extension WWE Tag Titles with, believe it or not, Kurt Angle.
He started 2003 by facing, you’ll never guess… Kurt fucking Angle (then WWE champion) at the Royal Rumble. After that, well, hold on…
What the fuck was going on?
Angle and Benoit couldn’t wrestle other guys?
Were they really close or something?
Did Vince just have no idea what to do after the Brand Extension?
BAD: I never looked at it like that – that’s a good question. Either way, Benoit’s team with Angle was cool, and his matches with Kurt Angle, where he just couldn’t beat him, were as good as any that WWE has ever had. I remember his match against Angle at the Royal Rumble being particularly off the charts. And I remember reading something along the lines that Kurt and Benoit loved working together, although who knows if that was true or not. Kurt was already a made man by this point, and I considered that program that he had with Benoit to be exactly what was needed to bring Benoit to the main-event stage. And Benoit didn’t even need to win any of the matches for that to be the case.
KON: Benoit would lose for most of 2003 before going on to win a match for “the best spot in the Royal Rumble”. When Rumble 2004 rolled around, Benoit was the first man in the ring and the last one out. The Crippler beat Triple H and Shawn Michaels in the main even of Wrestlemania XX, winning the WHC in the process.
It’s not often that HHH lets someone else go over. With Eddie and Chris holding the two top belts at the time, it’s a shame I was no longer watching.
BAD: There wasn’t a lot else going on at the time, so no one can blame you for not watching around then. Not RAW, anyway. I remember SmackDown being all right about then. I don’t think that’s actually true about Triple H (Batista, Orton, Hardy, HBK, etc.), but either way, this was a cool moment. I loved seeing Benoit win the RR, especially going in at #1. Everyone pretty much knew he would win at WM, and it was a cool moment, especially seeing him and Eddie at the end. And as much as we all enjoyed it, I think in our minds, we all knew that Benoit wasn’t going to be the face of the promotion for the long-term.
That didn’t bother me, though. I just thought it was cool to see a guy who I always thought was really good back when I started watching him in WCW, win the biggest belt you can win on the biggest show there is.
KON: He held the World Tag Team titles with Edge shortly after. Then, much like what happened with Angle, they feuded for quite a while. Edge won the feud in 2005 by hitting Benoit in the back of the head with a brick.
“Hey Vince, what about a steel chair? What about the ring bell? What about a ladder? what about the money in the Bank briefcase?”
“Shut the fuck up you god damn pissant, Edge will win by way of… a brick! Yes! I’m a genius, NOW GET BACK TO THE COCK SUCKING!”
I remember Benoit v Eddie at One Night Stand in 2005. Good match, good PPV, just not enough to get me back into wrestling. After that, Benoit beat the shit out of Orlando Jordan is a series of matches that lasted roughly 90 seconds when combined.
Eddie died in November of 2005. Benoit faced HHH in a tribute match, then Malenko entered the ring and the three paid their respects.
BAD: I remember the brick – sure makes a steel chair look like small potatoes, don’t it? That One Night Stand PPV was a thing of beauty, although I thought Benoit / Eddie should have been better than it was. Do not remember Benoit / Orlando Jordan, but that’s probably for the best. Eddie dying was a really, really sad thing – all the wrestlers did great tributes for him. Benoit looked completely destroyed that his friend had died. From some accounts, people said that this was when Benoit started (or at least accelerated) his descent into madness. (A phrase I’ve never had the opportunity to use in a wrestling column before now.)
After Eddie died, I remember Benoit doing another Best Of 7 series with Booker T, trying to re-capture the goodness of their WCW series. I think they did a damn good job, but if I remember, someone got hurt and had to be replaced before they could finish. Disappointing, but these things happen. I believe it was during this series that Benoit did a sick dive out of the ring and destroyed his spine on the announce table, a spot that made it onto the “Don’t Try This At Home” bumper. Benoit’s facial expression after he hit that table was… uncomfortable.
KON: After the Best of 7 he, uh, “broke JBL’s hand” during their feud, then faced Finlay for a while before a “Vaderesque” Mark Henry “broke” the crippler (the irony, she is not lost on me). Benoit then took time off to recover from non-kayfabe injuries.
He regained the US Title in his second match back, then feuded with Chavo and Vickie Guerrero for some strange reason. You’d think they would’ve teamed up after Eddie’s passing, but what the fuck do I know, I’m just a blogger…
Benoit spent most of early-2007 in a feud with MVP over the US Title, eventually dropping it in a 2 out of 3 falls match at Judgement Day.
In his time with WWF/E, he managed to rack up one WHC reign, three US title runs, four IC and Tag Title reigns… I can’t say the storylines were particularly memorable though.
BAD: I wasn’t watching much around the JBL / Henry stuff – I do vaguely remember the Chavo stuff. I do remember the MVP feud as being quite good, and that feud definitely helped elevate MVP. Keep in mind, this is back when people expected bigger things from him – I thought MVP held his own quite well in matches against a guy as good as Benoit. I would argue though, that a lot of his title reigns / chases were quite memorable – the IC run with Jericho, the WHC title run with Angle / Rumble / Mania, and the US Title with MVP – those were all strong programs in my mind because they were based on “who’s better”, or at least the matches themselves – and not some cheesy over-acted nonsense.
Around this time, I didn’t know if Benoit would get another World Title run or not – but I do remember thinking that he was perfectly placed on the card, and thought he had a long, useful future in wrestling ahead of him. He was still putting on great matches, still getting strong reactions, and helping younger guys in the process.
KON: I guess a lot of it had to do with me growing out of wrestling during the time when he got big.
In 2002 I had prelims, then exams in early ’03. My father had moved a few hundred miles away for work and our house was up for sale, wrestling just wasn’t that much of a priority. Obviously I don’t remember the matches I didn’t watch, but I hadn’t heard a great deal about much of the stuff past his WHC reign.
I always enjoyed his matches, especially the stuff on NITRO back in the day. WWF was leaning towards smaller and faster guys at the time, but they’d still drop everything they had planned for guys who looked like Diesel.
BAD: WWE has always been like that – and became more and more so around the time that the things we’ve discussed happened. I became much more of a casual fan around this time too, especially as time went on and I had less and less reason to stay tuned in with guys like Orton, Batista and Cena dominating the shows. Benoit though, he was a constant, and even if the programs he was in weren’t the best, I still found him entertaining.
The thing I most liked about Benoit over the course of his entire career, even after disappearing from the main event and entering the later half of his career, was that he never lost what always appealed to me most about him – strong, quick, agile, fast – the complete package – and he genuinely appeared dangerous. In my opinion, anyway – you genuinely believed that whether it was real or fake, the guy had several ways he could knock you out or break a limb, at any time he felt like doing it.
KON: On the 25th of June, police found the dead bodies of Chris, his wife and their child. Chris has been scheduled to win the ECW Championship at Vengeance (John Morrison won it instead, make of that what you will) but missed the PPV and several house shows leading up to it.
I was on the Ain’t It Cool News message-boards at the time, we were all really, really shocked. Various “reports” were flying around, but nobody knew what really happened. WWE held a tribute show in place of the regularly scheduled RAW (which would’ve revealed who “killed” Vince, iirc). I watched, but the hard evidence was starting to hit the news sites and the whole thing felt really weird.
BAD: I was kind of dreading getting to this part.
I don’t remember where I originally saw the news, but it read that early reports indicated that Benoit and his family had apparently been murdered, but that an investigation was commencing. They had tried to do the RAW tribute show in the same spirit as the Owen / Eddie tribute shows, but you’re absolutely right, it was weird and uncomfortable. I believe it was actually DURING that RAW that the news of what actually happened started to come out. I guess on the one hand, WWE had assumed kind of the same thing I did, that a murder of some sort had taken place, and they couldn’t exactly go out and do a regular show after one of their performers had died. Maybe the thought had honestly never occurred to them that Benoit could be responsible for such a thing. Regardless of which you believe, WWE was in a tough spot and did what they thought would be the best way to go at the time with the information they had. Was it the smartest thing to do? Probably not, but it’s not “continue the PPV after Owen dies” level either.
KON: I’d say they were right to pay tribute to him. RAW is a wrestling show and Benoit was a wrestler.
Think of it another way. Lets say WWE got word of the real events, or maybe they didn’t find out Chris had died until after RAW: We would’ve got a Vince McMahon tribute show instead (due to his “death” via exploding limo), something that would’ve been looked back on as one of the worst moments in history (not just because of the storyline, they’d face accusations of mocking Benoit’s death as well).
We would never have got the Benoit tribute show.
With WWE erasing him from their history, that tribute show was the only moment the fans will ever get to remember Benoit as a great wrestler.
BAD: Definitely agree with this. I’m just saying there may have been a better way to do it, but that argument hinges on the idea that they would have known what really happened beforehand anyway.
Experts said something along the lines that Chris Benoit’s mind resembled that of a 65-year old Alzheimers patient. The man was not well, that much is clear. Hopefully they at least un-erase him from history sometime in the future. I’m not saying they need to go out of their way to mention him or honour him or anything like that, but let’s be honest. As terrible as it was, every single person who is a wrestling fan (and many who aren’t) knows what happened whether WWE mentions him or not.
KON: Thanks for taking part, Blair.
BAD: My pleasure, dude. It was fun.
Previously:
Podcast 401: The One Where Hitler Meets Batman…
Rest In Peace – With Gojira and KON
Welcome to the 3rd instalment of my revolving door interview series type thingy.
Part two ended with the realisation that no story has a happy ending (at least in the wrestling business). I thought I was done after that, but Mike Gojira asked if he could take part in an Undertaker-based version and, over the following 61 emails, I think we kinda covered The Deadman’s long and successful career…
*insert gong sound here*
KON: What is your earliest memory of The Undertaker?
GOJIRA: My earliest memory of the Undertaker, eh? That’s actually a tough one, in all honesty. I’m not really sure exactly when I marked out for the Deadman gimmick. I watched wrestling off-and-on in the early 90s, but I do have one vivid memory of Taker. It was my first house show at Madison Square Garden; in fact, it was my first wrestling event ever. My uncle and my father tricked my cousin and I by saying we were going to a car show. When we arrived at MSG, I saw the banners and couldn’t believe what I was seeing! The only thing I can recall from the show was a WWF Championship match between Undertaker and Bret Hart. If memory serves, I believe Taker won via DQ. At that time I wasn’t really paying attention and thought he had won the title! When it was announced that Bret would retain, I was a bit upset.
KON: That would’ve been like ’93 or ’94, I think I’d worn out the print on my Undertaker t-shirt by then.
You have no recollection of the stuff with Hogan or Jake?
GOJIRA: I only watched the random episode of Superstars here and there at that point. It wasn’t until 1995-1996 that I really got into wrestling. I didn’t see the Hogan or Roberts angles until years later.
KON: So you missed out on the start of “The Streak” as well?
I bet you were upset that you never got to experience those classic bouts with Giant González and King Kong Bundy.
GOJIRA: Who could forget those gems?
Don’t forget: I may have missed that crap, but I got stuck with Big Bossman, Big Show/Albert, and Mark Henry.
KON: I wasn’t all bad back then though, you still got to see some of the fantastic vignettes with Paul Bearer.
GOJIRA: Ah, Paul Bearer. I still remember his awesome heel turn when he hit Taker over the head with the urn after the Boiler Room Brawl.
KON: Was The Undertaker’s weird grey mask in full effect by the time you got into it?
GOJIRA: This was around the time he was returning to feud with Chainz…aka UnderFaker. I remember watching the Summerslam PPV and laughing at Leslie Nielsen. Now I shake my head whenever I see that foolishness.
KON: Do you remember Undertaker v Diesel? It was the first Mania match that kinda mattered.
GOJIRA: Of course I remember! Wrestlemania XII was THE moment I watched wrestling non-stop (with the exception being my Raw Sabbatical during the Triple H Reign of Terror). I recall thinking the match wasn’t much to speak of, but I was happy that Taker won. It wasn’t until the Summer of ’96 that I started reading the dirt sheets and discovered Nash’s contract was up. I didn’t pay attention to WCW until the Hogan heel turn.
KON: After that they did a thing with him and Mankind. The WWF was big on gimmick matches back in the day, so they threw everything in. I think they had a buried alive match, a boiler room brawl, a Paul Bearer On a Pole match…
It’s a shame they tend to stick to the same handful of match types these days. The mid-90′s might have been more cartoon-like, but a PPV centred around a Burried Alive match sounds way more interesting than one based around a fatal 4-way.
Any thoughts on the feud with Mankind?
GOJIRA: Keep in mind that I was a bit more emotional as a teenager and, as such, I was dismayed at Foley’s constant destruction of the Deadman. However, that feud gave us some great matches and really pushed Taker to the top of my “Fave Five,” so to speak. Hell in a Cell was my favorite Undertaker match for a long time…both the HBK and Mankind ones.
KON: I wasn’t huge on the Michaels Hell in a Cell match. It was good, but it wasn’t exactly hell.
The one against Mankind though? That was crazy.The match lasted less than 15mins, yet it was harder hitting than the original and everything that came afterwards. I’ve heard a lot of praise for this year’s Taker v HHH match, but the cell it’s self didn’t really play a role.
We’re getting ahead of ourselves here…
Wrestlemania XIII, Undertaker v Sycho Sid!
GOJIRA: I loved the symbolism that Wrestlemania XIII (the lucky number being 13) was Undertaker’s big moment. His previous title run was questionable at best. I didn’t like that Taker needed Bret’s interference, but the chase for the gold that took place the month before was intense. That’s something I’ve documented before, so I won’t get into that here. As for Taker’s run with the gold, it was the typical “let’s feed the champ midcarders until Summerslam.” I didn’t mind; in fact I prefer that we go back to that dynamic. It keeps things fresh and gives up-and-comers a chance to show off.
KON: After that we were introduced to Kane.
We’ve already covered the Hell in a Cell match with Michaels, so let’s jump ahead to 1998…
Shawn v Taker, Casket Match at Royal Rumble.
Kane v Taker at Mania XIV.
Kane v Taker, Inferno Match at Unforgiven.
GOJIRA: I was NOT a fan of DX. Looking back at it now, I’m still not sure if Michaels and Triple H were supposed to be full-on heels, as their material was quite comical. They were anti-authority, but at the expense of face authority figures like Sergeant Slaughter and lone wolves like Owen Hart. As for the Royal Rumble match, I saw the casket at Fan Axxess four years ago and let me tell you, that bump HAD to hurt HBK. It’s still dented to this day.
I had gone to an episode of Raw…I think it was around the New Year, actually. I saw Kane and the Undertaker working together and I thought it was awesome, but I expected the heel turn later in the month. Their match at Mania was boring and plodding. I think it did more damage to Kane’s reputation even though it took three Tombstone Piledrivers to put him away. The Inferno match was, in hindsight, a dumb concept and it definitely didn’t interest me in the least.
KON: They did a good job of keeping the story going. I think not having them fight straight away was a great move as well, it built a level of suspense that WWE these days doesn’t even attempt to reach. I guess Rock v Cena had a massive build, but that had a lot more to do with the number of dates in The Rock’s contract.
How about his tag-team run with Stone Cold?
GOJIRA: The obligatory tag team that hates one another? Meh. Next!
KON: The Ministry!
Kidnappings, crucifixions, higher powers, McMahon’s most memorable line ever… You must’ve liked what was going on with The Undertaker in ’99.
GOJIRA: The Ministry was an awesome angle, which of course was ruined by the influence of the McMahons. It introduced us to Stephanie McMahon, which was fine…until she turned heel. We got to see wrestling cross (no pun intended) the line with the crucifixion of Austin. I enjoyed the Ministry until we got the illogical reveal of the Higher Power. I wonder if we saw a Black Scorpion moment back then. Do you know why I made that reference?
KON: No. What was “Black Scorpion”?
GOJIRA: Back in WCW’s heyday, Sting was supposed to face this mysterious arch-enemy known as the Black Scorpion. The Scorpion hid behind a mask for months, but the problem as I recall was there was no end game in place for the reveal. What did WCW do? They played a lot of bait-and-switch until they decided to just use Ric Flair as the man behind the curtain. It was a pathetic angle with a terrible ending.
KON: Sounds a lot like what they did with Hogan and Brutus.
GOJIRA: I think the WWE wrote themselves into a corner with the Higher Power angle and just decided to use Vinnie Mac.
KON: Undertaker v Bossman, Hell in a Cell at Mania XV!
GOJIRA: That would have been perfect for a kennel match. The dogs shitting around the cage was a perfect metaphor, don’t you think?
KON: They really should’ve pulled a George Lucas with the DVD set of the streak.
I guess the American Bad Ass incarnation of The Undertaker is up next….
GOJIRA: Visions of Limp Bizkit and Kid Rock dance in my head.
That was a bizarre time for the ol’ Undertaker, but we got a lot of good out of his run. I commend him for wanting to shy away from the gimmick to be more realistic, but we all knew by Wrestlemania XX the Deadman would resurface. Before the return to Old School, there was a lot of good that came out of the American Bad Ass run.
Brock Lesnar: Hell in a Cell.
Jeff Hardy: ladder match.
Kurt Angle and The Rock: Triple Threat match.
KON: I kinda gave up on wrestling in 2002, so I don’t know much of what went on during that time.
The “all important” streak matches were:
XVII – Triple H
XVIII – Ric Flair
XIX – Big Show & A-Train
XX – Kane
21 – Randy Orton
22 – Mark Henry, Casket match
23 – Batista, World Heavyweight Championship
XXIV – Edge, World Heavyweight Championship
XXV – Shawn Michaels
XXVI – Shawn Michaels, No countout, no disqualification, Streak vs. Career match
XXVII – Triple H, No Holds Barred match
XXVIII – Triple H, Hell in a Cell W/special guest referee Shawn Michaels
GOJIRA: All right. Let me break it down for you.
XVII: This was before the streak became a big deal, but I was surprised to see Triple H take the fall. This was during his Reign of Terror, but I suppose there’s always someone higher in the pecking order no matter what position you hold/whose daughter you’re fucking.
XVIII: The Flair match seemed a little odd, as Taker essentially dominated the entirety of the feud and it never really seemed as though Ric had a chance.
XIX: This was supposed to be a breakout night for Nathan Jones, but apparently the company didn’t have such high hopes for him after all. What we DID get was a match that made the future Tensai and the perennial Wrestlemania jobber Big Show look inept.
XX: The return of the Deadman gimmick (and Paul Bearer). There was no chance that Kane would win here, and it wasn’t any better than their first encounter.
XXI: I believe it was Randy Orton who first brought real prominence to the Streak and turned it into an angle. I remember when he RKO’d Stacy Keibler to show he was ruthless and truly ready for the Taker. That was a decent match, if I recall.
XXII: Terrible.
XXIII: The second of Taker’s title matches at Wrestlemania. Both men were faces at the time, and they delivered a good match for the fans.
XXIV: The end of Taker’s feud with Ege. Once Taker won the Royal Rumble, I think we all knew it was a wrap for Edge.
XXV: I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. The single greatest match I’ve ever had the privilege to watch live in person. Everything about that match, from the build to the crowd atmosphere, was perfect. It’s too bad the WWE didn’t realize that THIS was the reason people bought Wrestlemania and we got stuck with two underwhelming title matches afterward.
XXVI: Some people think this was the better of the two encounters, but perhaps my being in Texas the year before has made me biased. A good match, but nothing like XXV.
XXVII: This was brutal, but mostly because Taker was in no shape to really compete. The ending was unique, as Undertaker was unable to walk out under his own power after the victory.
XXVIII: Overrated. A good brawl, with some great visuals courtesy of the Showstopper, but not their best effort. Did it tell a great story? Yes. The match itself was really just a hardcore brawl more than anything.
KON: So what’s your view on the streak as it stands?
GOJIRA: A number of years ago (around the time Orton went after Taker), I would have said that ending the streak could be a positive to solidify a talent’s status. Now, with the lack of new stars and the unreliability of established stars (like the aforementioned Orton), I can’t see how ending the streak will help anyone. He should have retired after 20. Now we have the prospect of next year to look forward to.
KON: Taker has looked unwell the last few times he popped up. If you look at guys like Flair and Hogan, you can pinpoint almost the exact match that it went from being “Awesome, Flair/Hogan is out” to “Fuck, I don’t think he’s physically able take a bump.”
GOJIRA: Honestly, as a huge fan of the Undertaker, even I know it’s time to retire. I first noticed his decline in his feud with Kane. He lost three straight title matches! For a while I thought it was mostly to put over Kane for all the times he jobbed to the Deadman. When I saw the “quality” of matches, I realized he just couldn’t do it any more.
KON: Yeah. At this point, the streak is either going to end via broken bones, heart failure, arthritis, cancer or senile dementia. I think would be a much better idea to have an active wrestler end it instead, but that’s just me.
GOJIRA: It’s too late to capitalize, what with his failing physical prowess. If company man Triple H won’t do it, nobody should. Especially Cena.
KON: WWE will wheel him out for a few more years, regardless of his physical state.
GOJIRA: Can you imagine? The fog…the flickering lights…the gongs….Paul Bearer wheeling Taker down the ramp in a scooter while druids attend to his drooling…
KON: They’ll cut the lights for like 5mins, then bring them back up with Taker in the ring. It might actually work on Smackdown, or the 324908569345 ad-breaks during RAW.
GOJIRA: They could parade his body around like Lenin’s corpse, I suppose. A little macabre, but remember: this is the same company that gave us Katie Vick.
KON: They want to bring him back for the 1000th episode of Monday Night Raw in July, maybe the entrance will take up a whole 12 minute segment.
I keep hearing about WWE trying to reel Sting in for a Wrestlemania match with The Deadman as well…
GOJIRA: I think they missed the boat on that by about 5 years.
KON: At least.
Do you think WWE will end up implementing some sort of pension scheme for old wrestlers, much like they do with the Wellness thing for guys who are addicted to grapes drugs?
GOJIRA: Considering the way these guys are used as independent contractors, no. Maybe if they retire into an office position.
KON: They have done that type of thing in the past, I hear Ron Simmons has some sort of behind the scenes role, Goldust was a “road agent”, Duthty runs the training place… a lot of shoot interviews talk about Calaway being the guy who holds the locker-room together, so maybe he could get a Talent Relations role (gotta be better than Laurinaitis) or something along those lines.
GOJIRA: Yes, but do those guys have a pension plan?
KON: That’s one aspect you never hear about. The “talent” are classified as independent contractors, but would a guy like Luger, who’s now head of the Wellness division of WWE, not be entitled to the same benefits as Joey Styles (who runs a lot of WWE’s internet stuff)?
GOJIRA: Wait, Luger’s in charge of the Wellness Program?! That’s like putting RVD in charge of drug tests for pot.
KON: I think the idea is that Luger will go around saying things like “You know, it starts with pot, Mr. Orton. One day you’re laughing your ass off, the next you’re responsible for the death of Miss Elizabeth and have to live on Sting’s sofa.”
GOJIRA: Too soon, dude. Too soon.
KON: That seems to be as good a note to end on as any.
GOJIRA: Thanks for your time, and you’re welcome for boosting your ratings and helping to keep you employed.
KON: Thanks for taking part, Mike.
This was in interesting one. The interview was slightly difficult to conduct, mainly due to real life getting in the way and ruining the pace, but I found the conversation really enjoyable and I hope you guys do to.
Previously:
Part I: DESTRUCITY – With CB and KON
Part II: HULKAMANIA – With CB and KON
*insert witty intro here*
Remember when I said WWE was doing slightly racist stuff and everyone went fucking nuts? Fella’s new finisher is called “White Noise.”
I read a lot about the level of cheers he may or may not be getting, a little about his in-ring ability, very little about his character though. Fella’s “Celtic Warrior” gimmick was solid. It was something he was into and it was reasonably well thought out. Had they ran with that, rather than buggering about with him being anti-bully or whatever the fuck it was… if he was The Celtic Warrior and his finisher was The Irish Curse, he’d make sense.
Imagine he won the Rumble because he’s a natural fighter and the warrior instinct took over, causing him to eliminate 7-13 people on the roster (i.e. not Foley or the fucking Road Dogg), including The Big Show and The Great Khali. Imagine he used the time in-between Rumble and Mania to go back to Ireland and study the techniques that helped his ancestors win their battles. Imagine Muh Boy D-Bry tried everything he knew against The Celtic Warrior, but Fella powered out of it all and laughed it off.
I’m not saying the above idea is the greatest thing ever, but I am saying that WWE’s writers are fucking morons. Even CM Punk would’ve looked like a bag of shit at WrestleMania if he’d spent the previous eight weeks doing nothing but clothesline Jinder Mahal.
Speaking of CM Punk, does anyone remember the promo last year where he said “Alberto Del Rio, you are a one-note character. You come out and talk about “destiny” while everyone goes to sleep, then you leave” or something like that? It was fucking terrible. Not only did it shit all over Del Rio (who I’m sure didn’t ask for a shitty gimmick), but it shat on the original Punk “shoot” as well. Every time Punk would came and “dropped a pipe-bomb” it diluted the message and weakened the character. Punk became a one-note character for a while, but almost everyone got behind it due to the shoot-based nature of the promos.
Alberto Del Rio has returned. Have the writers learned from the mistakes they seen fit to include in Punk’s promo? Have they fuck. Ricardo Rodriguez has received more character development.
Imagine if Punk v Ziggler happened the way it did at Royal Rumble, but Ziggler was the one who went on to do the “alcoholic” storyline with Punk. Ziggler would’ve broken away from Vickie in order to get inside Punk’s head, then done all the stuff you watched Jericho do.
Jericho is in the dog-house right now and he’ll probably leave before 2013. What happens then? They’ve spent the past 5 months maintaining or lessening the status of everyone on the roster, including super-Cena.
Orton isn’t the top face on Smackdown anymore, yet they refused to build Sheamus to that level before giving him another title run.
Punk was WWE Champion, yet they decided to give him “the rub” from an established name.
Muh Boy D-Bry right here was World Champion and getting a good reaction, yet they decided he should lose in 18 seconds.
Ziggler was getting over as a cocky heel while feuding with the WWE Champion, yet they decided he should be jobbing to Brodus clay.
Zack Ryder amassed a huge following via his youtube show, yet they decided to use him as a pawn to fuel the “Will he, wont he?” Cena storyline.
Cody Rhodes held the IC Title for 237 days, yet they decided to give it to a guy who’s wrestled for 237 years.
Yet some of our readers object to me saying that I won’t watch the next WresteMania if it includes a large ratio of older wrestlers…
martyrshow | Banned In Germany 